Why Your Marketing Is Everywhere and Getting You Nowhere

i have with me today a really cool guest

that i think

is going to help a lot of small businesses

his name is josh anderson

and he is the founder of marketing reboot

which is both his company

but he also has a podcast

which is how we met josh

i don't remember who introduced us or

oh you found me on linkedin

i want to i did yes yes

linkedin and yeah

that's it about your book

yeah oh yeah yeah

so um

that was really cool being on your podcast

yeah we had like this

this cool conversation and i was like okay

i gotta have you on mine

because you have some knowledge that is

that i don't have your target market is more um

i think you told me it was like

twenty five million to

like a hundred million is kind of your sweet spot

yeah it

it can vary of course

depending on the need and what they need

but yeah that's it

twenty five million top line

this is kind of the sweet spot

you know around there

give or take yeah

and mine is really kind of up to where yours begin

so like yeah

at twenty five million they start needing you and not

right yeah

so that makes sense yeah

i'm super glad to have you on the podcast

but um

yeah first i wanna ask you

i need you to brag on yourself a little bit

but i'll make it more comfortable

so what is a really cool compliment

that a client of yours has

has given you oh man

um you know

there's always the testimonials that are great

but i think like

the biggest compliment can be when somebody like

allows you to be their fractional cmo like

and then let trust you to do it correctly

right so like

that's the trust in that relationship

building that well

words can you know like

i've gotten that compliment

of course like wow

um you know you you

you can visualize all the areas

and how they come together for a full campaign

which is great and everything

but like

just people giving you the trust to

you know to steer their baby

so to speak is

is a big compliment

yeah and so as a fractional cmo

i think it's really cool

because you get to see a lot of different operations

yeah some good

some bad some yeah

uh so let's dive into that

so you are here today because

we wanted to talk about marketing operations

and you mentioned to me before i hit record

that some businesses

kind of start things out of order

with their marketing operations

so talk about that yeah

i mean the

what i do is really help people take chaotic marketing

and see clearly i bring clarity to that right

you know as you're a small

very small business

kind of like the ones that's your ideal customer right

you're kind of you're just putting everything together

and doing what you can

to stay on top of being in the market

and all the the noise that comes with it

but as you start to build a little team

now you're not the solo founder anymore

you actually have

maybe strategic marketer as director of marketing

plus a junior marketer

right now you have three cooks in the kitchen

so to speak things can get a lot more confusing

of course like who's working on what

what's being done who's tracking

things of that nature

so my team can come in and help audit the entire

the entire viewpoint of what people are currently doing

and then really we try we normally cut twenty

five to thirty percent of what people are doing

because they're focusing on the wrong things or they're

putting themselves in too many verticals

where they're not even making

so like the the band with the

the limit the juice isn't worth the squeeze

so to speak for being on all these

so we come in look at what they're currently doing

and then help install marketing automation

so they can grow their team from two to four to five

um marketing

um operations

i should say so that isn't

you know like something as simple as filing

naming structure within google drive

teams spend hours and hours and hours

searching for things they've already created previously

just because nobody remembers what the name was

right so something as simple as that can save your team

each member one hour a week

and that compounds over time so

and so getting everybody on the same page

yeah so exactly right

um

what is the biggest mistake that you mentioned

like too many verticals

what's like

the biggest mistake that you see

small business owners who are ready to kind of

transition up to larger teams

what is the biggest mistake you see them making

yeah that's a

that's a great question you know there's

there's a few and i know you said the biggest

but one of them is simply

trying to be everything to everyone you

you just cannot do it we need to fix

we're gonna focus on what we're going to try to own

and be really good at right

that doesn't mean you can't experiment in other areas

you you can

you know

but as soon as you double down on what's working

then try to side experiments about

and then you know

to see if tiktok is the right platform for you

that's probably a bad example

but you know what i mean you can

then you can take more strategic bets on what's

what you think will be the next thing

so yeah

being everybody being everything to everybody

probably is one of the the big ones

i see oh

my gosh i just

i just did an episode on um

what platforms are right for you

because small business owners

especially when they're starting out

they're like well

a dollar is a dollar wherever it comes from

and i have to i have to be everywhere to

to get customers right away

because i'm small and i need the revenue

yep when really the opposite is true

and if you if you niche right away right

your exact right

customers are going to find you so much more easily

because your marketing is targeted

yes exactly right

and you become like the

and each platform has its intricacies right

they're all different each platform

like use hashtags or no hashtags

just small things like that right

you become an expert within say linkedin

that platform of course

but then i think it's also very important that

even from the start you're really focusing on your

in your positioning and your messaging right

of course and that

that being everything to everybody

goes not just from platforms

and where you distribute your message

but also how you speak of yourself

you cannot be everything to everybody

and expect to make a dent in the market right

so i think it's really focusing on that subset of

who you can truly

really help and who you're passionate about helping too

because without passion you're not

it's not gonna stay it doesn't have staying power

so i think that's important too

so um let's

i'm just gonna pull an example out of the air

to just kind of see how your brain works

and your process works so let's

let's talk about cause

dog lover obviously

um that side

that side there you go

let's talk about a veterinarian

okay so a veterinarian has been like

working at another veterinarian's practice for a while

and they're like you know

i'm ready to start my own

so they go and they start their own

and the first thing that i see them do

as you already mentioned is i'm going to uh

call myself let's see

um minneapolis veterinarian

um let's just go with that

cause it's ok perfect

yeah yeah

and then um

they're like ok

i have to attract all of my potential customers

so i'm gonna throw all of these typical words

that veterinarians use

on my marketing so i'm gonna say yeah

um

what it what

like they would say uh

compassionate uh yeah dogs

cats and small breeds um

they would list their hours

they would say friendly staff

um right

you know yeah

boring stuff to just yeah

cast the widest net possible

right but what they're doing is

i mean you could slap any veterinarian's name on that

and they wouldn't know the difference

yep exactly

they call you and they're like josh

we need help so where do you start

yeah so

great question and honestly

i would start not even thinking about the messaging

it's time to

kind of dive into where they're currently at

so if they're at another veterinarian

they have a lot of insight

about what that veterinary clinic did well

and what they didn't do well

they see the gaps that veterinary clinic has too

maybe they weren't really good at cats

for instance and now this new veterinary

minnesota minneapolis veterinary

the actual veterinary

i feel like i'm saying that word repeatedly

but she loves working with cats

so the passion's there

and there's a market gap there as well

so i would also so that

that's where i'd start

just to get the core fundamentals

of how we're going to develop this messaging

and then you're going to shape that around the felines

so you know

and well

not excluding all canines

and all the other small animals

right but why not

yeah yeah

you guess you could do that

but that that exactly

we would kind of

curtail all that messaging to that audience

in that age group and then

and then as you're like

starting this is down the road

then you look at platforms too

as well you know

i'm sure there's

there's tons of demographic data about there on

you know if we're trying to use our dollar

our marketing dollars as effectively as possible which

what's your demographic is on facebook versus tiktok

i'm guessing just say facebook

for example

so that's where we're gonna target our audience right

just because we know that's where they're at

um so yeah

so now we have a gap in the market

say it's feline around that for fifty mile radius area

where you're trying to get clients from

or however big that's gonna be um

and then to your point there

lean completely into that

like you

i am the number one cat recommended veterinarian

in minneapolis you know

just then get creative

this is might not be the best example in the world

but that's how i would think about it first

cause

i wanna make sure i have that differentiator there

which would be almost exclusively focus on cats

versus a generalist over here

so you can lean into being that cat expert

yeah i love that um i

i love when a small business picks their lane

and commits to it

because then all their marketing gets easier right

you can have fun with the fact that maybe you're

you can have fun with the name of your business

if you're just cats because you know

cats rule and dogs drool or something like that

you know you can have fun with it

you can be very specific um because cat owners

are a different breed haha

fun intended from dog owners

yeah and

and um

that veterinarian if they love cats

why not go all in because exactly

their marketing also gets cheaper

because if they're doing like targeted ads

or yes you know what not

or they're working with you

you don't have to come up with okay

this is the message we'll start with

and then yeah

they say oh

but we really want to serve parakeets or dogs too

it's kind of like you have to talk them down and say

it's gonna be okay yeah

if you are a specialist like a

the adage if you're a neurosurgeon

you're gonna get paid

a lot more than a general practitioner

so be yeah

and that's so and that's so scary

for somebody just starting that new business

right

because they want every single dollar they can get

whether it's from that parakeet

you know the dog

whatever it is they they

they need that money or they

they think well

they do need that money

but it might hurt at the very beginning

but i feel like in the long run

being that specialist is going to pay off remarkably

and because word spreads yeah

yep you know exactly

absolutely spreads like um

like a i love working with um

auto mechanics who are small business owners

and their mechanics it's a similar problem

they're like ok

we fix all makes and all models

we can do it all

you don't trust them as much if you have um

let's say you have a

a foreign car yeah

and it's um

it's a hybrid

wouldn't you rather go to somebody who only does that

and would you

drive past other generalists to get to them

yeah yeah

i agree hundred percent yeah

because that just builds credibility and trust

and things of that nature right

i also think too like now we went when we

that category went just only feline

but there's also other different differentiators

that said veterinarian could look at maybe

and obviously i don't know much about the field

but maybe they offer free overnight killing

with everything they do

they have free overnight killing

and then

that could be a big thing that they would push as well

if they want to stay in the generalist area

you know like they wanted to work on cats

dogs and everything

but there's also other ways you can still differentiate

differentiate yourself excuse me

and that could be what i just mentioned

or it could be

uh some

some form of customer service

cause a lot of people could differentiate

with customer service like

we will respond to you within thirty minutes

or something right

but you gotta find what that small differentiator is

that's gonna actually matter to your little market

or whatever market you're in

and then just lean into that

whether it's a cat or overnight killing

things like that so you can also specialize um

by what you treat their um

there is a an emergency vet clinic that is only open um

at night after hours

yeah yeah

they charge a premium

because inevitably my dog would have an emergency at

like nine o'clock at night and

you know eat something dumb or

you know and we'd have to

we had

well a

there weren't a lot of options at that hour

but b um

we drove extra far yeah

to get to that clinic because um

we actually got got to trust them because we were

we were so frequently there

we should have had our own parking spot haha

like um

i don't know much about cats

not a huge fan sorry

listeners um

but dogs for example

a lot of dogs get like

dysplasia in their hips yeah

one of our dogs had that yeah

same um

cats i think they're like

feline leukemia i think

is something that's big yeah

my yeah

one of our cats had that too

look at this oh

my gosh why not be

why not be a specialist and list that

because that's far more search searchable

i mean veterinarian near me is yeah

it's searchable but how

you're not gonna you're not gonna own that keyword

right yeah

and yeah

why not have veterinarian near me yeah

that special that happens to specialize in cats

and you're you're gonna perk up a little bit more

because you love your cat

yeah some reason you love your cat

yeah and i

i love that thing too

but i love that thing about emergency vet too

right because people are not

and

that's where your marketing dollars can go really far

because

people don't have to think about you at all times

but you just need to come to top of mind

when they do officially need you right

they just

they might stay with their normal vet from nine to five

but i'm like you said

ten o'clock at night

whenever something bad is going down

they're gonna think of emergency bet right

and i think that that's a really smart play too

so if you are a generalist

you are competing with every other generalist

big and small and the bigger they are

the more money the more staff

the more everything resources they have

how are you going to compete with that

the smaller you are

or especially if you're just starting out

yeah so

you know again this

this makes everything cheaper and easier because

you know you're laying

yeah your positioning is so vitally important

when that's the case right

you just gotta

you gotta hammer out that different differentiator

that you can you can credibly stand behind

and you personally believe as well

but then that those massive organizations can't mimic

because the the bigger companies are

the slower they are to react

um that

you know there's hurdles that come with that too

so you can be quick and agile on the market

yeah exactly

okay

so we don't have to keep talking about veterinarians

so let's go back to something

that you said at the beginning

like when you go in it can

be as something as simple as

their google file naming conventions

yeah so um

tell me now okay

so you're starting out with the simple things

let's let's get a little bit more into what do you do

what can you do when you first come in

to help somebody as a fractional cmo

mm hmm yeah

so we just have like

most agencies but it's a little different

we have a foundational audit

where we're gathering as much information as possible

about a company so we're talking about

of course data and reporting

google analytics hubspot access

things of that nature but we're also

like interviewing key stakeholders

if there's a board we're interviewing the board

we're interviewing the c suite

we're interviewing employees

and we're also

we usually do an anonymous employee survey

to the entire company to see how they actually feel

about how the company portrays itself

they're on the front lines

they're gonna get better

they're gonna have really good ideas

right then we also interview customers

of course so we're gathering all this information

and we are first of all testing um

you know we're looking at bloated waist

bloated ad spin things of that nature

but then we're really focusing on

what you guys think you're saying to the market

is what you actually are so

we're looking at their actual internal messaging

position internal positioning statement

excuse me um

that can take a long time

and that there can be some really

hard arguments about that

in terms of what you guys truly are gonna stand on

as your differentiator versus

you know all the other things

so we're trying to hammer that out

we're trying to get a good messaging platform built

so that's your internal positioning statement

um your origin story

your archetypes uh

icsps all this

and data points to back those up

and service offerings all in one document

this document is like gold

because now you have a team of you

you go from a solo finder

but you have a team of four to five to six

plus sales plus this

plus that plus customer service

everybody's messaging is going to be filtered

through this messaging platform

so you're all speaking the same exact

already agreed upon language um

and you're portraying yourself the same

so it eases the customer journey

because they hear something on the website

but then they talk to sales

it's completely different

there's just friction there

so that removes the friction

um man

you're getting me excited about this

so we get this messaging platform built out

and that's what

that's gonna be the holy document for what

everybody's gonna speak how they speak

internally and internally

um yeah

so we're organizing that into a good

marketing operation system

where they filter everything through

so that's really step one

because we want everybody to speak the same language

okay go on

let's let's talk about step two

yeah step two

then okay so now we have our marketing platform set

my messaging platform set

step two is kind of then

and it this happens at the same time

but one the same aspect while that's going on

is like a clarity path so um

the eos system internal operating system

i was a follower for that forever

and still that in several companies

but i believe in a lot of that

so we're talking to the entire um

organization mostly sees leadership team at this

now what is your three year goal

your one year goal quarterly goals

so now we're working backwards right

and you can even go higher than that

i usually stop at three because once you tell

people dream of five and ten year goals

that's great and everything

but i like to be more realistic

about what's here in front of us

so we work backwards three year goal

one year goal and then quarterly goals

but then also what issues do you see in the horizon

and then we assign ownership and timelines

for each of those quarterly goals

um

that is gonna be our roadmap for the next ninety days

um from there

simple campaigns will be well

not simple but campaigns will be built out on a

depending on what's going on

on a weekly or monthly cadence

to filter up to that quarterly goal

right okay

so now we have the team talk in the same language

and we have the team aligned in the same path

so the same way right

so we have our goals and we have our messaging

now this is where we can then

so maybe we have to update messaging across the

across the website or something

or across ads due to different messaging platform

right so we'll get that updated

and then we're going to test this

you know

we already are testing this with our current customers

to make sure they agree like this

does this fit us we're doing this internally

to make sure the positioning is solid

um and then i'd like to orchestrate some strategic

well a

b testing on the messaging platform

so getting this message out in front of your ics

on whatever platform they are on

so facebook or linkedin for example

just because targeting is so effective there

you know putting that messaging out there and then um

analyzing it based on engagement and comments

and maybe leads of course right

depends on what the company is going for

um so now we're trying

we're verifying that messaging platform resonates

actually with your customers

um yeah

so that's that's really the main three

you know we're getting our message platform down

we're getting our goals

everybody lined in the same strategic path

and then

we're going to start doubling down on what's worked

but through that

but by doing that through really strategic

small experiments so that's

that was a lot okay

you've said icp a couple times

just define that for our yeah sorry

who are maybe starting out

yeah ideal customer profiles

so this is essentially in

in the ideal world say you are that veterinarian

and you're going for felines

we're going back to that i guess that's

it's um

susie who's thirty five and has three house cats

and she's you know

maybe she makes thirty forty thousand a year

i don't know but like

you're gonna get really granular on

who that exact person is how they feel

what problems they're having

how they would speak how they

you know just getting very granular

and you can name them of course too

cause that way

you can then build campaigns specifically for susie

cause she might be the ideal customer profile

right so yeah

okay and uh

you said simp simple messaging

but then you kind of corrected yourself and said

well it's not simple

but i think what you do is you simp

it's simplified like the whole process is simplified

yeah yeah

it's once you come in

it is i hope so

that's the goal right

yeah we simplify that information gathering

from everybody in the organization

outside the organization

and then it comes into a simplified framework

which is that messaging platform

yeah so that's

yeah that's a great

great point there it's easy

everybody's on the same page

and so yeah the process is simplified

and then

they don't have to look at each other every month

or every quarter and just go

well what should we try next exactly

yeah they know

yeah yeah exactly

cause you once you build your

once you set your three one quarterly goals right now

say it's february first whatever

and so i guess

it depends on

how you want to structure your marketing cases

but now you have ninety days of a a

goals and timelines that you need to hit

and you just break that into smaller bits

with smaller campaigns

you know to

to reach those ninety day goals

so more bite size pieces

and i wanted to touch on um

so you said you will go on their platforms

and do some a b testing

uh huh

what do you feel is an appropriate amount of time

to gather enough data to be sure um

that what you're testing is really working

that data is valid i guess yeah

statistically viable um yes

well i mean there's so many things going to that

it's really how much budget they wanna put towards

the more budget you put towards the front

the faster it's gonna go

just because you get way more engagement

maybe not engagement

but more impressions off of the get go

right um

and then so usually we recommend in

this depends so many variables

depends on the target audience too

cause some are way more expensive to target too

cause they're much more niche and granular

but if it's like a wider open audience

maybe you're testing a hundred dollars per day

for seven to fourteen days

that's just a general thumb

that's just a general thumb

yeah and then you just need to look at the data right

because if you especially

you know how a lot of platforms

the algorithm will push um

a b test one versus a b test or a b a

i guess you should say versus a b two

cause it's performing better

but you wanna kind of have the same amount of data

after a while for each one

to get a good picture right

you don't want your first test

to have a thousand impressions

while the second one has twenty impressions right

that's not gonna be statistically viable

to compare the two so um

sincerely significant i should say

so make sure there is enough data points there

and a lot of that goes into knowing your market as well

right so like

if you historically you've been running ads

and many people haven't historically

but if you historically running ads for

i don't know years you

you know

what the data has looked like from past performance

right you

you put up a post you average ten cop

ten likes right

and you can kind of pair that previous data to

to these new tests here

so a lot of variables go into that

yeah

and if you've been scattered with your marketing before

that that data is not as um

significant i guess yeah yeah

as when you're really targeting

yeah which leads me to

okay so uh

if i uh

say i'm a small business i'm working with you

and you um

you are highly recommending that based on my icp

that i go all in on a platform

that i haven't really had a lot of experience with

um how long would you tell me to just trust the process

how many how many weeks

months before i really see traction

when i'm doing it the right way

following your simplified process

yeah so at first i would need

once again there's so much goes into that

at first

i would need to see what they're currently doing

so say they're they have had success on facebook um

and you know but i think from market research

that their icp's really aren't linked in right

yeah there's no way

i would ever have them just completely stop

the facebook that's the current facebook's going on

because i want that revenue engine still running

in the background right where they are currently

and then i would we would lay out a

a ninety day plan with strategic tests throughout

so we're essentially just

we've never posted on linkedin

i'm making this all up of course

but let's now post twice a week with a

a brand awareness small spin ad in the background

um obviously we're gonna utm

we're gonna track that properly

data tracking like that

so we can look at the analytics behind there

to see how much traffic came from that source

look at a cost per click at

you know how much that actually cost

and see if we got any form submissions

or whatever your goal conversion is right

so it would be very small strategic test to begin with

and we commit to it for ninety days probably

unless the data

you know within the first month

you can see like we've gotten zero clicks

zero form submissions

then either our messaging must be completely off

or our icp is not right so we're gonna

we're gonna adjust accordingly

so yeah

so what's what's a

i know there are a lot of variables to this

but what is like the the average length of time yeah

that a business engages with you to get it right

yeah so we do it

i like very quick engagements honestly

like ninety to sixty days

so three to six months so

some people just come to us

just for that fundamental audit

like it's a thirty day quick engagement

where it's intensive for everybody involved

but we're gathering as much information as possible

then then we'll supply that to you

um yeah

so that's usually a thirty day

but um

ideally i'm a six month kind of guy

cause i kind of get bored

i like to keep moving on

and implementing things of that nature

so yeah

yeah and

and honestly by that thirty days

the system is going to be implemented

people might want us for another thirty days

or another three months just to watch to make sure

um so yeah fabulous

and uh so what kind of advice is

we're kind of winding down this episode

what what advice would you give for businesses

that can't afford you yet

what are some practical steps that they can take

to kind of shore up their

their marketing operations

so that when they can afford you

they haven't made a lot of those early mistakes

yeah yeah

i mean just stay on top of your

first of all stay on top of your data

make sure and i'm sure you are as a business

because you're monitoring revenue

ad spend things like that

and hopefully you're at and monitor your attribution

where your leads are coming from

now if you're not that sophisticated yet

which is fine right

um

i would say you you still have a pretty good idea

if your current ads are working

but still

make a focused effort to get google analytics in place

google tag manager hubspot

whatever crm you're using

make sure that's in place

just so your making decisions based on data

not gut feeling gut feeling is great for creativity

can really help with some awesome campaigns

but if they don't deliver top line

what's the point so um

yeah make sure you have the data in place

and then i would say if you haven't done it

in a while or you might not even have one

try to build your own internal positioning statement

you know um

there's tons of great resources online

i have several blogs on there on

on the site on marketing reboot as well

but try to get the whole team aligned

using the same language and i'm

i'm talking from top of funnel to bottom funnel

plus customer service and onboarding and offboarding um

even employee hiring and training like that

can really be funnel through that messaging platform

so analyze get the data

trust the data optimize by the data

and then make sure you're speaking the same language so

and okay so where can people find out more about you um

what you write about your podcast

all those things yeah

well thank you

um yeah

marketing reboot it's mktg reboot dot com

abbreviation for marketing

so yeah

marketing reboot dot com um

articles on there you can subscribe to the newsletter

it's a weekly newsletter which kind of just

it goes into these thinking and deeper thinking of

about these issues um

and then um

the podcast is called making big shifts

it's so you can find it on marketingreboot dot com

or you can go to youtube dot com

slash at mkdg reboot and you'll find it there

very cool well um

thank you so much for your insights

i think they're extremely valuable

whether you are just starting out

and you wanna get things right

the first time

or whether you are a more established business

who is ready to expand

or shore up what they've been doing

so thanks for being on here today

i think you're helping a lot of people

and i appreciate it yeah

well i appreciate you having me on

this has been fun i really do appreciate it

i do have one final question

and it is perhaps the most important question

dogs or cats

oh man

growing up dogs and cats

i'm both i really am

truly both we only have cats now

just cause my wife's a huge cat person

but me and my son are you know

talking her into getting a dog here

i think this summer so

very cool very cool

okay well we'll

we'll let it slide that you're both okay

since you and your son you know are

yeah we're pro

pro dog yeah yeah

we'll let it slide okay

thanks again josh

i really appreciate your time and your wisdom

appreciate it thank you