i have with me today a really cool guest
that i think
is going to help a lot of small businesses
his name is josh anderson
and he is the founder of marketing reboot
which is both his company
but he also has a podcast
which is how we met josh
i don't remember who introduced us or
oh you found me on linkedin
i want to i did yes yes
linkedin and yeah
that's it about your book
yeah oh yeah yeah
so um
that was really cool being on your podcast
yeah we had like this
this cool conversation and i was like okay
i gotta have you on mine
because you have some knowledge that is
that i don't have your target market is more um
i think you told me it was like
twenty five million to
like a hundred million is kind of your sweet spot
yeah it
it can vary of course
depending on the need and what they need
but yeah that's it
twenty five million top line
this is kind of the sweet spot
you know around there
give or take yeah
and mine is really kind of up to where yours begin
so like yeah
at twenty five million they start needing you and not
right yeah
so that makes sense yeah
i'm super glad to have you on the podcast
but um
yeah first i wanna ask you
i need you to brag on yourself a little bit
but i'll make it more comfortable
so what is a really cool compliment
that a client of yours has
has given you oh man
um you know
there's always the testimonials that are great
but i think like
the biggest compliment can be when somebody like
allows you to be their fractional cmo like
and then let trust you to do it correctly
right so like
that's the trust in that relationship
building that well
words can you know like
i've gotten that compliment
of course like wow
um you know you you
you can visualize all the areas
and how they come together for a full campaign
which is great and everything
but like
just people giving you the trust to
you know to steer their baby
so to speak is
is a big compliment
yeah and so as a fractional cmo
i think it's really cool
because you get to see a lot of different operations
yeah some good
some bad some yeah
uh so let's dive into that
so you are here today because
we wanted to talk about marketing operations
and you mentioned to me before i hit record
that some businesses
kind of start things out of order
with their marketing operations
so talk about that yeah
i mean the
what i do is really help people take chaotic marketing
and see clearly i bring clarity to that right
you know as you're a small
very small business
kind of like the ones that's your ideal customer right
you're kind of you're just putting everything together
and doing what you can
to stay on top of being in the market
and all the the noise that comes with it
but as you start to build a little team
now you're not the solo founder anymore
you actually have
maybe strategic marketer as director of marketing
plus a junior marketer
right now you have three cooks in the kitchen
so to speak things can get a lot more confusing
of course like who's working on what
what's being done who's tracking
things of that nature
so my team can come in and help audit the entire
the entire viewpoint of what people are currently doing
and then really we try we normally cut twenty
five to thirty percent of what people are doing
because they're focusing on the wrong things or they're
putting themselves in too many verticals
where they're not even making
so like the the band with the
the limit the juice isn't worth the squeeze
so to speak for being on all these
so we come in look at what they're currently doing
and then help install marketing automation
so they can grow their team from two to four to five
um marketing
um operations
i should say so that isn't
you know like something as simple as filing
naming structure within google drive
teams spend hours and hours and hours
searching for things they've already created previously
just because nobody remembers what the name was
right so something as simple as that can save your team
each member one hour a week
and that compounds over time so
and so getting everybody on the same page
yeah so exactly right
um
what is the biggest mistake that you mentioned
like too many verticals
what's like
the biggest mistake that you see
small business owners who are ready to kind of
transition up to larger teams
what is the biggest mistake you see them making
yeah that's a
that's a great question you know there's
there's a few and i know you said the biggest
but one of them is simply
trying to be everything to everyone you
you just cannot do it we need to fix
we're gonna focus on what we're going to try to own
and be really good at right
that doesn't mean you can't experiment in other areas
you you can
you know
but as soon as you double down on what's working
then try to side experiments about
and then you know
to see if tiktok is the right platform for you
that's probably a bad example
but you know what i mean you can
then you can take more strategic bets on what's
what you think will be the next thing
so yeah
being everybody being everything to everybody
probably is one of the the big ones
i see oh
my gosh i just
i just did an episode on um
what platforms are right for you
because small business owners
especially when they're starting out
they're like well
a dollar is a dollar wherever it comes from
and i have to i have to be everywhere to
to get customers right away
because i'm small and i need the revenue
yep when really the opposite is true
and if you if you niche right away right
your exact right
customers are going to find you so much more easily
because your marketing is targeted
yes exactly right
and you become like the
and each platform has its intricacies right
they're all different each platform
like use hashtags or no hashtags
just small things like that right
you become an expert within say linkedin
that platform of course
but then i think it's also very important that
even from the start you're really focusing on your
in your positioning and your messaging right
of course and that
that being everything to everybody
goes not just from platforms
and where you distribute your message
but also how you speak of yourself
you cannot be everything to everybody
and expect to make a dent in the market right
so i think it's really focusing on that subset of
who you can truly
really help and who you're passionate about helping too
because without passion you're not
it's not gonna stay it doesn't have staying power
so i think that's important too
so um let's
i'm just gonna pull an example out of the air
to just kind of see how your brain works
and your process works so let's
let's talk about cause
dog lover obviously
um that side
that side there you go
let's talk about a veterinarian
okay so a veterinarian has been like
working at another veterinarian's practice for a while
and they're like you know
i'm ready to start my own
so they go and they start their own
and the first thing that i see them do
as you already mentioned is i'm going to uh
call myself let's see
um minneapolis veterinarian
um let's just go with that
cause it's ok perfect
yeah yeah
and then um
they're like ok
i have to attract all of my potential customers
so i'm gonna throw all of these typical words
that veterinarians use
on my marketing so i'm gonna say yeah
um
what it what
like they would say uh
compassionate uh yeah dogs
cats and small breeds um
they would list their hours
they would say friendly staff
um right
you know yeah
boring stuff to just yeah
cast the widest net possible
right but what they're doing is
i mean you could slap any veterinarian's name on that
and they wouldn't know the difference
yep exactly
they call you and they're like josh
we need help so where do you start
yeah so
great question and honestly
i would start not even thinking about the messaging
it's time to
kind of dive into where they're currently at
so if they're at another veterinarian
they have a lot of insight
about what that veterinary clinic did well
and what they didn't do well
they see the gaps that veterinary clinic has too
maybe they weren't really good at cats
for instance and now this new veterinary
minnesota minneapolis veterinary
the actual veterinary
i feel like i'm saying that word repeatedly
but she loves working with cats
so the passion's there
and there's a market gap there as well
so i would also so that
that's where i'd start
just to get the core fundamentals
of how we're going to develop this messaging
and then you're going to shape that around the felines
so you know
and well
not excluding all canines
and all the other small animals
right but why not
yeah yeah
you guess you could do that
but that that exactly
we would kind of
curtail all that messaging to that audience
in that age group and then
and then as you're like
starting this is down the road
then you look at platforms too
as well you know
i'm sure there's
there's tons of demographic data about there on
you know if we're trying to use our dollar
our marketing dollars as effectively as possible which
what's your demographic is on facebook versus tiktok
i'm guessing just say facebook
for example
so that's where we're gonna target our audience right
just because we know that's where they're at
um so yeah
so now we have a gap in the market
say it's feline around that for fifty mile radius area
where you're trying to get clients from
or however big that's gonna be um
and then to your point there
lean completely into that
like you
i am the number one cat recommended veterinarian
in minneapolis you know
just then get creative
this is might not be the best example in the world
but that's how i would think about it first
cause
i wanna make sure i have that differentiator there
which would be almost exclusively focus on cats
versus a generalist over here
so you can lean into being that cat expert
yeah i love that um i
i love when a small business picks their lane
and commits to it
because then all their marketing gets easier right
you can have fun with the fact that maybe you're
you can have fun with the name of your business
if you're just cats because you know
cats rule and dogs drool or something like that
you know you can have fun with it
you can be very specific um because cat owners
are a different breed haha
fun intended from dog owners
yeah and
and um
that veterinarian if they love cats
why not go all in because exactly
their marketing also gets cheaper
because if they're doing like targeted ads
or yes you know what not
or they're working with you
you don't have to come up with okay
this is the message we'll start with
and then yeah
they say oh
but we really want to serve parakeets or dogs too
it's kind of like you have to talk them down and say
it's gonna be okay yeah
if you are a specialist like a
the adage if you're a neurosurgeon
you're gonna get paid
a lot more than a general practitioner
so be yeah
and that's so and that's so scary
for somebody just starting that new business
right
because they want every single dollar they can get
whether it's from that parakeet
you know the dog
whatever it is they they
they need that money or they
they think well
they do need that money
but it might hurt at the very beginning
but i feel like in the long run
being that specialist is going to pay off remarkably
and because word spreads yeah
yep you know exactly
absolutely spreads like um
like a i love working with um
auto mechanics who are small business owners
and their mechanics it's a similar problem
they're like ok
we fix all makes and all models
we can do it all
you don't trust them as much if you have um
let's say you have a
a foreign car yeah
and it's um
it's a hybrid
wouldn't you rather go to somebody who only does that
and would you
drive past other generalists to get to them
yeah yeah
i agree hundred percent yeah
because that just builds credibility and trust
and things of that nature right
i also think too like now we went when we
that category went just only feline
but there's also other different differentiators
that said veterinarian could look at maybe
and obviously i don't know much about the field
but maybe they offer free overnight killing
with everything they do
they have free overnight killing
and then
that could be a big thing that they would push as well
if they want to stay in the generalist area
you know like they wanted to work on cats
dogs and everything
but there's also other ways you can still differentiate
differentiate yourself excuse me
and that could be what i just mentioned
or it could be
uh some
some form of customer service
cause a lot of people could differentiate
with customer service like
we will respond to you within thirty minutes
or something right
but you gotta find what that small differentiator is
that's gonna actually matter to your little market
or whatever market you're in
and then just lean into that
whether it's a cat or overnight killing
things like that so you can also specialize um
by what you treat their um
there is a an emergency vet clinic that is only open um
at night after hours
yeah yeah
they charge a premium
because inevitably my dog would have an emergency at
like nine o'clock at night and
you know eat something dumb or
you know and we'd have to
we had
well a
there weren't a lot of options at that hour
but b um
we drove extra far yeah
to get to that clinic because um
we actually got got to trust them because we were
we were so frequently there
we should have had our own parking spot haha
like um
i don't know much about cats
not a huge fan sorry
listeners um
but dogs for example
a lot of dogs get like
dysplasia in their hips yeah
one of our dogs had that yeah
same um
cats i think they're like
feline leukemia i think
is something that's big yeah
my yeah
one of our cats had that too
look at this oh
my gosh why not be
why not be a specialist and list that
because that's far more search searchable
i mean veterinarian near me is yeah
it's searchable but how
you're not gonna you're not gonna own that keyword
right yeah
and yeah
why not have veterinarian near me yeah
that special that happens to specialize in cats
and you're you're gonna perk up a little bit more
because you love your cat
yeah some reason you love your cat
yeah and i
i love that thing too
but i love that thing about emergency vet too
right because people are not
and
that's where your marketing dollars can go really far
because
people don't have to think about you at all times
but you just need to come to top of mind
when they do officially need you right
they just
they might stay with their normal vet from nine to five
but i'm like you said
ten o'clock at night
whenever something bad is going down
they're gonna think of emergency bet right
and i think that that's a really smart play too
so if you are a generalist
you are competing with every other generalist
big and small and the bigger they are
the more money the more staff
the more everything resources they have
how are you going to compete with that
the smaller you are
or especially if you're just starting out
yeah so
you know again this
this makes everything cheaper and easier because
you know you're laying
yeah your positioning is so vitally important
when that's the case right
you just gotta
you gotta hammer out that different differentiator
that you can you can credibly stand behind
and you personally believe as well
but then that those massive organizations can't mimic
because the the bigger companies are
the slower they are to react
um that
you know there's hurdles that come with that too
so you can be quick and agile on the market
yeah exactly
okay
so we don't have to keep talking about veterinarians
so let's go back to something
that you said at the beginning
like when you go in it can
be as something as simple as
their google file naming conventions
yeah so um
tell me now okay
so you're starting out with the simple things
let's let's get a little bit more into what do you do
what can you do when you first come in
to help somebody as a fractional cmo
mm hmm yeah
so we just have like
most agencies but it's a little different
we have a foundational audit
where we're gathering as much information as possible
about a company so we're talking about
of course data and reporting
google analytics hubspot access
things of that nature but we're also
like interviewing key stakeholders
if there's a board we're interviewing the board
we're interviewing the c suite
we're interviewing employees
and we're also
we usually do an anonymous employee survey
to the entire company to see how they actually feel
about how the company portrays itself
they're on the front lines
they're gonna get better
they're gonna have really good ideas
right then we also interview customers
of course so we're gathering all this information
and we are first of all testing um
you know we're looking at bloated waist
bloated ad spin things of that nature
but then we're really focusing on
what you guys think you're saying to the market
is what you actually are so
we're looking at their actual internal messaging
position internal positioning statement
excuse me um
that can take a long time
and that there can be some really
hard arguments about that
in terms of what you guys truly are gonna stand on
as your differentiator versus
you know all the other things
so we're trying to hammer that out
we're trying to get a good messaging platform built
so that's your internal positioning statement
um your origin story
your archetypes uh
icsps all this
and data points to back those up
and service offerings all in one document
this document is like gold
because now you have a team of you
you go from a solo finder
but you have a team of four to five to six
plus sales plus this
plus that plus customer service
everybody's messaging is going to be filtered
through this messaging platform
so you're all speaking the same exact
already agreed upon language um
and you're portraying yourself the same
so it eases the customer journey
because they hear something on the website
but then they talk to sales
it's completely different
there's just friction there
so that removes the friction
um man
you're getting me excited about this
so we get this messaging platform built out
and that's what
that's gonna be the holy document for what
everybody's gonna speak how they speak
internally and internally
um yeah
so we're organizing that into a good
marketing operation system
where they filter everything through
so that's really step one
because we want everybody to speak the same language
okay go on
let's let's talk about step two
yeah step two
then okay so now we have our marketing platform set
my messaging platform set
step two is kind of then
and it this happens at the same time
but one the same aspect while that's going on
is like a clarity path so um
the eos system internal operating system
i was a follower for that forever
and still that in several companies
but i believe in a lot of that
so we're talking to the entire um
organization mostly sees leadership team at this
now what is your three year goal
your one year goal quarterly goals
so now we're working backwards right
and you can even go higher than that
i usually stop at three because once you tell
people dream of five and ten year goals
that's great and everything
but i like to be more realistic
about what's here in front of us
so we work backwards three year goal
one year goal and then quarterly goals
but then also what issues do you see in the horizon
and then we assign ownership and timelines
for each of those quarterly goals
um
that is gonna be our roadmap for the next ninety days
um from there
simple campaigns will be well
not simple but campaigns will be built out on a
depending on what's going on
on a weekly or monthly cadence
to filter up to that quarterly goal
right okay
so now we have the team talk in the same language
and we have the team aligned in the same path
so the same way right
so we have our goals and we have our messaging
now this is where we can then
so maybe we have to update messaging across the
across the website or something
or across ads due to different messaging platform
right so we'll get that updated
and then we're going to test this
you know
we already are testing this with our current customers
to make sure they agree like this
does this fit us we're doing this internally
to make sure the positioning is solid
um and then i'd like to orchestrate some strategic
well a
b testing on the messaging platform
so getting this message out in front of your ics
on whatever platform they are on
so facebook or linkedin for example
just because targeting is so effective there
you know putting that messaging out there and then um
analyzing it based on engagement and comments
and maybe leads of course right
depends on what the company is going for
um so now we're trying
we're verifying that messaging platform resonates
actually with your customers
um yeah
so that's that's really the main three
you know we're getting our message platform down
we're getting our goals
everybody lined in the same strategic path
and then
we're going to start doubling down on what's worked
but through that
but by doing that through really strategic
small experiments so that's
that was a lot okay
you've said icp a couple times
just define that for our yeah sorry
who are maybe starting out
yeah ideal customer profiles
so this is essentially in
in the ideal world say you are that veterinarian
and you're going for felines
we're going back to that i guess that's
it's um
susie who's thirty five and has three house cats
and she's you know
maybe she makes thirty forty thousand a year
i don't know but like
you're gonna get really granular on
who that exact person is how they feel
what problems they're having
how they would speak how they
you know just getting very granular
and you can name them of course too
cause that way
you can then build campaigns specifically for susie
cause she might be the ideal customer profile
right so yeah
okay and uh
you said simp simple messaging
but then you kind of corrected yourself and said
well it's not simple
but i think what you do is you simp
it's simplified like the whole process is simplified
yeah yeah
it's once you come in
it is i hope so
that's the goal right
yeah we simplify that information gathering
from everybody in the organization
outside the organization
and then it comes into a simplified framework
which is that messaging platform
yeah so that's
yeah that's a great
great point there it's easy
everybody's on the same page
and so yeah the process is simplified
and then
they don't have to look at each other every month
or every quarter and just go
well what should we try next exactly
yeah they know
yeah yeah exactly
cause you once you build your
once you set your three one quarterly goals right now
say it's february first whatever
and so i guess
it depends on
how you want to structure your marketing cases
but now you have ninety days of a a
goals and timelines that you need to hit
and you just break that into smaller bits
with smaller campaigns
you know to
to reach those ninety day goals
so more bite size pieces
and i wanted to touch on um
so you said you will go on their platforms
and do some a b testing
uh huh
what do you feel is an appropriate amount of time
to gather enough data to be sure um
that what you're testing is really working
that data is valid i guess yeah
statistically viable um yes
well i mean there's so many things going to that
it's really how much budget they wanna put towards
the more budget you put towards the front
the faster it's gonna go
just because you get way more engagement
maybe not engagement
but more impressions off of the get go
right um
and then so usually we recommend in
this depends so many variables
depends on the target audience too
cause some are way more expensive to target too
cause they're much more niche and granular
but if it's like a wider open audience
maybe you're testing a hundred dollars per day
for seven to fourteen days
that's just a general thumb
that's just a general thumb
yeah and then you just need to look at the data right
because if you especially
you know how a lot of platforms
the algorithm will push um
a b test one versus a b test or a b a
i guess you should say versus a b two
cause it's performing better
but you wanna kind of have the same amount of data
after a while for each one
to get a good picture right
you don't want your first test
to have a thousand impressions
while the second one has twenty impressions right
that's not gonna be statistically viable
to compare the two so um
sincerely significant i should say
so make sure there is enough data points there
and a lot of that goes into knowing your market as well
right so like
if you historically you've been running ads
and many people haven't historically
but if you historically running ads for
i don't know years you
you know
what the data has looked like from past performance
right you
you put up a post you average ten cop
ten likes right
and you can kind of pair that previous data to
to these new tests here
so a lot of variables go into that
yeah
and if you've been scattered with your marketing before
that that data is not as um
significant i guess yeah yeah
as when you're really targeting
yeah which leads me to
okay so uh
if i uh
say i'm a small business i'm working with you
and you um
you are highly recommending that based on my icp
that i go all in on a platform
that i haven't really had a lot of experience with
um how long would you tell me to just trust the process
how many how many weeks
months before i really see traction
when i'm doing it the right way
following your simplified process
yeah so at first i would need
once again there's so much goes into that
at first
i would need to see what they're currently doing
so say they're they have had success on facebook um
and you know but i think from market research
that their icp's really aren't linked in right
yeah there's no way
i would ever have them just completely stop
the facebook that's the current facebook's going on
because i want that revenue engine still running
in the background right where they are currently
and then i would we would lay out a
a ninety day plan with strategic tests throughout
so we're essentially just
we've never posted on linkedin
i'm making this all up of course
but let's now post twice a week with a
a brand awareness small spin ad in the background
um obviously we're gonna utm
we're gonna track that properly
data tracking like that
so we can look at the analytics behind there
to see how much traffic came from that source
look at a cost per click at
you know how much that actually cost
and see if we got any form submissions
or whatever your goal conversion is right
so it would be very small strategic test to begin with
and we commit to it for ninety days probably
unless the data
you know within the first month
you can see like we've gotten zero clicks
zero form submissions
then either our messaging must be completely off
or our icp is not right so we're gonna
we're gonna adjust accordingly
so yeah
so what's what's a
i know there are a lot of variables to this
but what is like the the average length of time yeah
that a business engages with you to get it right
yeah so we do it
i like very quick engagements honestly
like ninety to sixty days
so three to six months so
some people just come to us
just for that fundamental audit
like it's a thirty day quick engagement
where it's intensive for everybody involved
but we're gathering as much information as possible
then then we'll supply that to you
um yeah
so that's usually a thirty day
but um
ideally i'm a six month kind of guy
cause i kind of get bored
i like to keep moving on
and implementing things of that nature
so yeah
yeah and
and honestly by that thirty days
the system is going to be implemented
people might want us for another thirty days
or another three months just to watch to make sure
um so yeah fabulous
and uh so what kind of advice is
we're kind of winding down this episode
what what advice would you give for businesses
that can't afford you yet
what are some practical steps that they can take
to kind of shore up their
their marketing operations
so that when they can afford you
they haven't made a lot of those early mistakes
yeah yeah
i mean just stay on top of your
first of all stay on top of your data
make sure and i'm sure you are as a business
because you're monitoring revenue
ad spend things like that
and hopefully you're at and monitor your attribution
where your leads are coming from
now if you're not that sophisticated yet
which is fine right
um
i would say you you still have a pretty good idea
if your current ads are working
but still
make a focused effort to get google analytics in place
google tag manager hubspot
whatever crm you're using
make sure that's in place
just so your making decisions based on data
not gut feeling gut feeling is great for creativity
can really help with some awesome campaigns
but if they don't deliver top line
what's the point so um
yeah make sure you have the data in place
and then i would say if you haven't done it
in a while or you might not even have one
try to build your own internal positioning statement
you know um
there's tons of great resources online
i have several blogs on there on
on the site on marketing reboot as well
but try to get the whole team aligned
using the same language and i'm
i'm talking from top of funnel to bottom funnel
plus customer service and onboarding and offboarding um
even employee hiring and training like that
can really be funnel through that messaging platform
so analyze get the data
trust the data optimize by the data
and then make sure you're speaking the same language so
and okay so where can people find out more about you um
what you write about your podcast
all those things yeah
well thank you
um yeah
marketing reboot it's mktg reboot dot com
abbreviation for marketing
so yeah
marketing reboot dot com um
articles on there you can subscribe to the newsletter
it's a weekly newsletter which kind of just
it goes into these thinking and deeper thinking of
about these issues um
and then um
the podcast is called making big shifts
it's so you can find it on marketingreboot dot com
or you can go to youtube dot com
slash at mkdg reboot and you'll find it there
very cool well um
thank you so much for your insights
i think they're extremely valuable
whether you are just starting out
and you wanna get things right
the first time
or whether you are a more established business
who is ready to expand
or shore up what they've been doing
so thanks for being on here today
i think you're helping a lot of people
and i appreciate it yeah
well i appreciate you having me on
this has been fun i really do appreciate it
i do have one final question
and it is perhaps the most important question
dogs or cats
oh man
growing up dogs and cats
i'm both i really am
truly both we only have cats now
just cause my wife's a huge cat person
but me and my son are you know
talking her into getting a dog here
i think this summer so
very cool very cool
okay well we'll
we'll let it slide that you're both okay
since you and your son you know are
yeah we're pro
pro dog yeah yeah
we'll let it slide okay
thanks again josh
i really appreciate your time and your wisdom
appreciate it thank you